How Songs Make Money

1.9 – Interview with Christopher Fox (new music composer; writer)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode offers an interview with Christopher Fox, a composer of new music, as well as a music scholar and writer. Christopher’s work has been performed and broadcast world-wide and has featured in many leading new music festivals, from the Amsterdam PROMS to the BBC Proms and from St Petersburg to Sydney. His work has been informed by close collaborations with a number of performers, including the soprano Elizabeth Hilliard, the pianist John Snijders, and the Apartment House and EXAUDI ensembles. His work is also the subject of the 2016 edited collection, published by Routledge, titled Perspectives on the Music of Christopher Fox: Straight Lines in Broken Times.
His writings on new music have also been published widely, in the journals Contact, Contemporary Music Review, Musical Times, TEMPO (which he has edited since 2015) and The Guardian. He has also held academic posts including Professor in Composition, Professor of Music at Brunel University London, and he is also Honorary Professor at the University of York.
In our conversation me and Christopher covered a wide range of topics including the position of composition within University music departments, the possibility of earning a living from new music composition, how new works are commissioned, and copyright registration as it relates to works that are improvised, unfixed, or otherwise difficult to classify.
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References and further reading
Doss, Rose (ed.) 2016. Perspectives on the Music of Christopher Fox: Straight Lines in Broken Times. Routledge.
 
Audio excerpts
Excerpt from ‘Free Diver’ (Fox). Performed by Kathryn Williams. Available on the album Dissenting Voices (Hat Hut Records). ℗ 2025 Christopher Fox and Kathryn Williams. © 2024 Christopher Fox.  Used for purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.8 – Student episode: Rossella Pia Scotti on Taylor Swift's masters

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
 
This week's episode is produced by Rose Pia Scotti, a member of the 2024/25 cohort on our Music Management MA course. Rose’s episode tells the story of Taylor Swift’s masters dispute, unpacking key terminology, introducing us to key individuals and companies involved, and drawing on various sources to give us a sense of the cultural and social impact of this case. This episode was recorded in May 2025.
 
Music excerpts are used only for the purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
 
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.7 – Interview with Tony Orchudesch (founder, Torchlight Music)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
 
This week's episode offers an interview with Tony Orchudesch, founder of Torchlight Music. Torchlight works with advertising agencies, broadcasters and producers to clear content for all forms of broadcast, and also has a roster of composers and arrangers, creating original music content and cover recordings for the media. In our interview we discuss the role of covers, re-recordings, and style-alikes in music for advertising, the process of identifying composition and master rights holders for existing recordings and compositions, and the power relations that shape negotiations between advertising agencies and music rightsholders.
 
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GlossaryReversionary rights – Rights that allow creators of musical works to regain ownership of relevant copyrights. The existence of these rights varies internationally.
Chain of title – In music, the sequential ownership history of a given composition or other intellectual property.
Most favoured nation clause – A contract provision ensuring that the relevant party receives equal (or better) terms as other parties.
Demo recording – In this context, a preliminary recording to share with a client as an indication of the style and quality of the intended work, somewhat distinct from the ‘home demo’ that producers and songwriters might create as a first recording of a composition.
Sound-alike and style-alike – Similar sounding terms with somewhat distinct meanings. Sound-alikes are new compositions intended to sound very similar to a specific existing composition; style-alikes are new compositions intended to more generally evoke the style of an existing composition, generally allowing for more melodic and lyrical variation.
 
 
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References and further reading
 
Hahn, M., & Hwang, I. (1999). Effects of tempo and familiarity of background music on message processing in TV advertising: A resource‐matching perspective. Psychology & Marketing, 16(8), 659-675.
Hee Park, H., Kwan Park, J., & Ok Jeon, J. (2014). Attributes of background music and consumers’ responses to TV commercials: The moderating effect of consumer involvement. International Journal of Advertising, 33(4), 767-784.
Meier, L. M. (2017). Popular music as promotion: Music and branding in the digital age. John Wiley & Sons.
Klein, B. (2016). As heard on TV: Popular music in advertising. Routledge.
 
Audio excerpts
Excerpt from work commissioned by Torchlight Music Ltd for a European client. This work is used here for purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Not for commercial re-use.
 
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.
 

1.6 - Student episode: William Gerrard on sampling, copyright, and society

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode is produced by William Gerrard, a member of the 2024/25 cohort on our Music Management MA course. William’s episode explores the relationship between copyright law and sample-based music. He tells us about the emergence of sample-based genres like hip-hop in the 1970s, identifies the copyright laws involved in clearing samples for use in new recordings, and also considers the social and racial dimensions of how copyright law is used to police particular forms of creative expression. As the episode progresses, William works up from a situated history of sampling to a broader consideration of the philosophical assumptions that underpin different approaches to copyright.
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.5 – Interview with Lily Blakeney-Edwards (Client Manager, Sentric)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
 
This week's episode offers an interview with Lily Blakeney-Edwards. Lily is Client Manager at Sentric Music, a music publisher which represents over 400,000 artists across the world. In this role Lily has worked with a range of emerging talent and established artists, and within the past year alone she has worked with Sound City, Jazz North and The Great Escape, and given talks at The University of Leeds, and Leeds Beckett University. In our interview we discussed what makes Sentric distinctive, Sentric’s approach to artist development, and the day to day rewards and challenges of Lily’s client-facing role.
 
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Glossary
 
Sync brief/sync pitch – A sync brief is call-out from a media production company (i.e. TV, film, games media) requesting submissions to might a specific, identified media usage; a sync pitch is an artist’s submission to be considered for a specific sync opportunity.
Bookers – Booking agents, who liaise between artists (or artist management) and concert promoters to secure live music engagements, and who may also have a strategic role in planning an artist’s longer-term live performance plans.
Industry conference/event – Events primarily created for and attended by music industry professionals, which might combine talks and workshops with live music ‘showcase’ performances and networking opportunities. Examples include Manchester’s The Unconference and Brighton’s Great Escape, which both take place annually.
Music supervisor – In film and television, the music supervisor is responsible for identifying and selecting appropriate music for the media in question (often in collaboration with the producer and other team members).
 
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References and further reading
Hesmondhalgh, D., Campos Valverde, R., Kaye, D. B. V., & Li, Z. (2023). Digital platforms and infrastructure in the realm of culture. Media and Communication, 11(2), 296-306.
Morris, J. W. (2020). Music platforms and the optimization of culture. Social Media + Society, 6(3),.
Poell, T., Nieborg, D. B., & Duffy, B. E. (2021). Platforms and cultural production. John Wiley & Sons.
Prey, R. (2020). Locating power in platformization: Music streaming playlists and curatorial power. Social media + society, 6(2).
 
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.4 – Student episode: Yuejing Li on classical music copyright (with Xin Jia)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode is produced by Yuejing Li, a member of the 2024/25 cohort on our Music Management MA course. Yuejing uses Beethoven as a starting point for exploring the world of classical music copyright, outlining the difference between recording and publishing copyright, and then considering the consequences of this distinction for classical music. This episode also contains excerpts of Yuejing’s interview with independent musician Xin Jia, who reflects on the challenges of utilising classical music recordings in his production of new songs. This interview was recorded in May 2025.
 
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.3 – Interview with Toby Huelin (University of Leeds) and Júlia Durand (University of Lisbon)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode offers an interview with Toby Huelin (University of Leeds) and Júlia Durand (NOVA University of Lisbon), who have both individually and collaboratively published academic research on the subject of library music (also known as production music). In our interview, Julia and Toby provide an overview of library music and its history, before moving on to consider some of the key developments in the library music industry in this century – including the platformisation of library music and the encroachment of A.I. technologies.
 
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Glossary
Buy-out model – in this context, a business model in which a library music company pays an up-front fee in exchange for long-term ownership of compositional and/or performance rights
Scoring to picture – composing music for a specific media synchronisation (which library music differs from insofar as it is not composed for a specific use, but for a range of potential uses).
Underscore – in this context, a variation of the musical score with dominant melodic themes removed.
Cues – in this context, sections of musical material that might be ‘dropped in’ to various points of the media to align with on-screen developments.
Reference track – in this context, a musical recording or composition that media producers provide to composers as a means to direct towards the desired style and tone.
 
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References and further reading
 
Deaville, J., Durand, J., Huelin, T., & Morton, M. (2024). Library Music in Digital Media. Music, Sound, and the Moving Image, 18(2), 95-113.
Durand, J. (2020). ‘Romantic Piano’and ‘Sleazy Saxophone’ Categories and Stereotypes in Library Music Catalogues. Music, Sound, and the Moving Image, 14(1), 23-45.
Durand, J., & Huelin, T. (2024). ‘Another conspiracy about a royalty-free song’: Library music in contemporary political discourse. Media, Culture & Society, 46(8), 1541-1558.
Huelin, T. M. (2022). Library music and its use in contemporary British television production (Doctoral dissertation, University of Leeds).
Johnston, N., Roy, E., Sexton, J. (2025) Anonymous Sounds : Library Music and Screen Cultures in the 1960s and 1970s. Bloomsbury.
Roy, E. A. (2023). Under suspicion: library music and the Musicians’ Union in Britain, 1960–1978. Popular Music, 42(1), 1-19.
 
Audio excerpts
‘Light and Tuneful’ (Mansfield). Performed by KPM Recorded Music Library. Available on the album Life is For Living: Impact Themes for Titles and Montages [KPM1110]. ℗ 1972 KPM Music. © 2009 KPM Music Ltd. Used for purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.2 – Student episode: El Kirkwood on sync licensing (with Danny West)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode is produced by El Kirkwood, a recent graduate of our Music Management MA course. El explores the world of sync licensing, reflecting on the economic value of sync deals, the question of how much ‘exposure’ through sync placements is really worth, and the challenges facing smaller independent artists in securing rewarding placements. The episode draws on an interview with Danny West, who at the time was working for a Leeds-based music organisation called Come Play With Me. This episode was recorded in April 2024, and since then Danny has moved to a new role as Producer at Universal Production Music UK.
El is also the creator of b!tch zine, and bassist in the Leeds-based punk band Helle. You can find out more about those projects here:
https://www.instagram.com/bitchzine/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/hellebandofficial/?hl=en
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.1 – Interview with William Castile (International Music Rights Manager, Phoenix Music International)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
This week's episode offers an interview with William Castile, who is currently International Music Rights Manager at Phoenix Music International. In our interview, Will helped me to understand the operations of Phoenix Music, and the character of the music rights they oversee, as well as his day-to-day role in handling music rights across digital platforms. We also discussed the challenges of working with catalogue recordings, and how to keep both artists and labels in the limelight – including through digital platforms as well as more traditional media campaigns.
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Glossary
 
CMS (Content Management System) – An application enabling users to create, manage, and modify digital content and metadata, generally without requiring extensive technical knowledge or programming skills.
CMO (Collective Management Organisation) – An organisation responsible for licensing and tracking music rights, and distributing royalties to rightsholders.
Gramex – A Danish neighbouring rights collection society. Essentially the equivalent to the UK’s PPL in that territory.
PPL – A UK collective management organisation handling the rights of performers and recording rightsholders specifically (rather than publishing rights pertaining to musical compositions).
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References and further reading
Brøvig, R. (2023). Parody in the age of remix: mashup creativity vs. the takedown. MIT Press.
Brøvig-Hanssen, R., & Jones, E. (2023). Remix’s retreat? Content moderation, copyright law and mashup music. new media & society, 25(6), 1271-1289.
Cross, A. ‘Here’s a running list of artists who have sold some or all of their song catalogues to a new breed of company. (Updated as required)’. A Journal of Musical Things, Sep 9 2025. Available: https://www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com/heres-a-running-list-of-artists-who-have-sold-some-or-all-of-their-song-catalogues-to-a-new-breed-of-company/
Hill, S. (2022). One-Hit Wonders: An Oblique History of Popular Music. Bloomsbury.
 
See also the homepage for Phoenix Music International, as well as the specific site for Jet Star Records:
https://www.phoenixmusicinternational.com
https://www.jetstar.co.uk/
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.0 – Trailer: Welcome to How Songs Make Money

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.
Please subscribe to this channel to receive weekly episodes.
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All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice.
How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.